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Adriel Trott's avatar

Scholar of Plato and Aristotle and recovering Evangelical here: I think this is a useful analysis, but I have one issue. I don't think Plato was a Platonist. That is, I follow the school that has increasing support that Plato did not have a doctrine of the Forms. In fact, Plato writes in dialogues to trouble the views of those with whom he speaks, including Pythagoreans who would likely hold something akin to a theory of Forms. Plato uses complex literary devices and historical references to put his interlocutors' arguments in a context that would complicate a straight-forward reading to his contemporaries. I am not suggesting there is an esoteric and exoteric reading, but rather, that the text offers reasons to resist a simple defense of a transcendental theory of knowledge that can govern the world. People take there to be a break between Plato and Socrates, where Socrates is considered the one who is more of an immanent thinker and Plato the transcendent positer of forms (which explains why Kierkegaard was so enamored of Socrates), but I think Plato is also illustrating the impossibility of a theory of Forms. For example, he is quite clear about problems of how you can learn from someone if you do not yet know in a way that suggests one must become a philosopher and pursue their understanding rather than accept a view from another who knows. You might be interested in my reading of Plato's cave analogy along these lines. I spend the time to make this point to suggest that Plato might in fact undo the defense of authoritarianism he is taken to support. And that I find worthwhile and important! https://brill.com/downloadpdf/journals/bapj/36/1/article-p31_3.pdf

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Midge's avatar

"In order to prescribe a certain culture as 'Biblical' that is normative apart from people’s culture or experience or even reason, you simply have to put your prescription in Platonic form."

I don't mean to defend Plato, but a mere human claiming discovery of a Platonic form would not therefore make it one. Even if the Bible were dictated by God Himself (and not just the treasured literature of a people of God), readers can't help interpreting what they read, making claims *about* Biblical Platonic forms claims subject to inquiry, too.

Mathematicians have a reputation for being Platonists in their area of expertise – with good reason: Material reality is continually approximating, but not achieving, mathematical patterns that are often first glimpsed by what Pascal called l'esprit de finesse — visionary, wordless thought that leaps ahead of discursive reason (l'esprit de géométrie) to draw it onward – glimpses which do feel like submission to a revelation outside the self, like "unselfing", to borrow Murdoch's terminology. Of course, math also subjects these glimpses to rigorous verification. But (in pure math, at least) this verification isn't an empirical process (empiricism can guide mathematical intuition, but it's not mathematical proof).

"Good news everyone! I've discovered a Platonic form!"

"How do you know it's one?"

"Because..."

Whatever the reasons following "Because", they can't help being reasons, *claims* subject to testing by some method including appeal to human reason. Not every valid method of testing is empirical (see pure math) or rigorously so (our daily lives revolve around empirical decisions that are far from rigorous). But there's no warrant for turning reasoning off completely, even with revelation. 

Test the spirits and hold onto what's good: When my unchurched husband asked recently, how do Christians know that God is talking to them, I replied that we don't, not for sure. We must resort to moral reasoning (often quite mundane!), hopefully informed by good formation, to discern as best we can.

I'm neither classicist nor philosopher, and from what little I know of Plato, he did have an authoritarian streak. But if Platonic forms did exist (as they might, in a way, at least in math), they wouldn't be human-created. We couldn't *put* our prescriptions into Platonic forms. Claiming our prescriptions were discoveries of these forms would be claims, subject to testing – and any reasonable amount of intellectual humility would force us to admit that we may have not perceived the truth – the "forms" – "out there" correctly.

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